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Why I chose to be a Modern force free trainer

1/6/2015

36 Comments

 
In this blog post I will tell you the story of why I decided to be a Modern force free animal trainer. In late 2008, when I decided to try formal training with my grandparents’ dog, I was made aware of a variety of training techniques and approaches. A lot of it ended up being an overload of contradictory information with each side offering very strong arguments and reasons as to why their approach was better. Perhaps by sharing my ideas on this topic I will be able to help people decide on the best way to train their pets.

To make this text easier to understand I will divide animal trainers into three categories: Traditional, Balanced and Modern. If we look at the picture below we can see that at the very left we have Traditional trainers, in the middle we have Balanced trainers and at the right end side we have Modern trainers. For each group I have added which operant conditioning quadrants they use, along with the main training motivation tool. This arrangement will result in an over-simplified version of the several training philosophies out there, so keep in mind that there are obviously people that will fall within different points of this spectrum.
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Traditional trainers are trainers that correct incorrect behavior as the main tool to teach the animal what they consider an appropriate behavior. This was the popular way of training dogs and even wild captive animals some decades ago. In regards to dog training, a few things that can identify a trainer that falls into this category would be references to “pack leader”, “dominance”, “dogs are like wolves”, “status”, “hierarchy”, “be strong and firm”, “correct the dog” and “discipline”. Any form of physical correction (including leash ones) can be an indication of a trainer that belongs to this group or the next one.

Balanced trainers will typically provide rewards for correct behavior and aversive consequences for incorrect behavior. This group can be a little more difficult to spot because they do use rewards and, can quickly be confounded with the Modern trainers group to the untrained eye. If, apart from rewards, there is any type of physical correction or intimidation when the animal makes a mistake, the trainer is likely to belong to this category. Some trainers in this category will teach behaviors without force and then “perfect it” with corrections when it is assumed that the animal has already learnt the behavior.

Modern trainers or force free trainers are the ones that do not use force or aversive measures to teach animals. They typically motivate the animal to do what they want and offer rewards for it. They can also remove pleasant things from the environment if the animal is showing an undesired behavior. These trainers manage the environment so that the animal can succeed. For example: instead of correcting a dog for grabbing and chewing socks, these trainers make sure that the dog has no access to socks at all and offer an appropriate chew item when the dog is likely to want to chew. In this group, trainers also understand that many times the animals’ behavior is the result of an underlying emotional state that needs to be addressed first.

I consider myself a Modern trainer and like any other human on the planet I am biased towards my own perception on this topic. At the moment, it is crystal clear to me why being a Modern trainer is better than being a Traditional or Balanced one, but back when I started that was not the case. There are many psychological, behavioral and biological reasons as to why a Modern approach is more appropriate (my last blog post refers some of those reasons), but for purposes of this text I will use a different set of arguments which were the ones that made me choose this approach some years ago.

Argument 1: Going back to my grandparents’ dog, when I decided to start training him I followed a Youtube tutorial. According to this,  you would train the dog offering a little bit of praise now and then and the dog would do the things you ask out of a desire to please the owner. Long story short, it was boring, uninteresting and neither I nor the dog enjoyed it. The dog would not look at me and I didn’t feel like it was working. I was a bit frustrated and did some additional research. Soon enough, I found a different video suggesting to train dogs with food. So, the next day that is what I did. What a difference! The dog had his tail up, a smile on his face and was looking at me the entire time. I got a few behaviors started and everything happened with a lot of “gusto”. I was hooked on animal training from this moment onwards. I was also pretty sure that using rewards was a good idea.

Argument 2: I started to read a lot of dog training books and I also bought several dog training DVDs. At this moment I was getting a lot of information from the three different approaches described above. I saw a lot of Modern trainers pointing out that the then famous TV show “Dog Whisperer with Cesar Millan” was a terrible approach to training dogs. I remember wondering if his approach could be used in conjunction with a Modern one, depending on each specific case. Then, I stumbled upon a fact that is still to this day one of my main arguments for the Modern approach. I noticed that all the major international references in animal training with a strong academic background in relevant fields were Modern trainers. People with Masters, PhDs, Post-Docs and Peer Reviewed work in fields related to animal behavior that decided to become dog trainers were all Modern Trainers. I noticed that the Traditional and the Balanced group had a lot of trainers that were self-taught and with many years of experience. In the Modern approach group, trainers without a formal academic background usually have or are currently obtaining certifications and courses based on the latest scientific findings. So if all trainers who have extensive academic studies on this topic choose a Modern approach, instead of a Traditional or Balanced one, what does this tell you?

Let me give you a practical example to further substantiate my point of view. If one day I wake up with a very strange looking mole on my skin the first thing I would do would be to show it to a medical doctor. I would not go to a witchdoctor or anyone that is self-taught on this topic. I want someone with a formal education in the field of medicine to help me figure out what it is and what to do next. I will also not trust my friends’ opinions and diagnosis if they offer it to me.

Argument 3: Over the years I have seen a huge migration from trainers that used to be Traditional or Balanced to Modern trainers. Some of these trainers have actually published some amazing material on this topic with which I learned a lot. Many of them have shared the reasons for that change in approach so that they can influence other trainers to make the same decision. However, I do not commonly see Modern approach trainers wanting to use a Traditional or Balanced approach. So, if we see a lot of people changing from the left to the right side of the spectrum, but not the other way around, what is this telling you?

Argument 4: I worked as marine mammal trainer with several animals that easily weigh four or five times more than I do. With marine mammals the mainstream approach is a Modern one and I am very glad that this is the case. With these animals, if you use a Traditional or Balanced approach you will be in serious risk of getting injured. In that sense, dogs are much more forgiving than many other species. Does that make it right to use aversive methods on them? I don’t think so and I am sure that many of you reading this would agree with me. Sometimes during training questions may arise regarding the suitability of a particular approach. Some of those times I end up asking myself “Is this something that I could use on a fur seal or on a tiger?” If the answer is no, it probably means that there is a better way.

Argument 5: I have also realized that Modern trainers are extremely open about their approach. They have no problem saying that their approach relies on rewards, managing the environment and emotions, etc. Balanced and Traditional trainers are a little bit less comfortable to openly say that they use physical corrections in their trainers’ tool box. Most of the balanced trainers that I have spoken to have no problem telling me that they offer food rewards when the dog is learning something new, but they hesitate to openly refer to how and when they use corrections. Here is an interesting thing I have found: on Youtube you will quickly notice that the vast majority of videos from Modern trainers is open to comments, while the Traditional and Balanced ones usually do not allow comments. What is this telling you?

In sum, a modern approach seems to be the best option for both you and your dog, with long lasting positive effects and happy lives.  When in doubt about which approach is best, pull a Temple Grandin approach and put yourself in the animal’s shoes. Would you like to do that behavior to avoid punishment or would you prefer to do it because you will get something that you like? I believe that there will come a time in which a choke chain will be a historical piece kept in museums, which will serve to remind us that back in the day we used to train dogs with those things. I am not sure if that moment will come in 10 or 50 years, but everything seems to suggest that it is coming. The amount of Modern trainers is growing at a pace that the two other approaches combined cannot catch. Personally, I think that the future is certainly a Modern force free approach.

36 Comments
John Hodkinson
20/5/2015 10:40:59 pm

Interesting take but it does raise one or two questions. If those in the centre of the diagram are balanced trainers does that indicate the further a trainer moves, in either direction from this point, the more unbalanced they become?

You offer, as an example, the different ways that trainers deal with stolen socks. What about all the other things that dogs destroy, that can't be put away/out of their reach?

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Jamie Robinson link
7/10/2015 08:53:51 am

It's the trainers themselves that say they are "balanced" trainers. It in no way implies that they are in fact balanced. It is merely a convenience to impart that they have a big tool box, but on looking into it, one will usually discover that they rely much more heavily on the corrective and punishment based methodology then the reward and management based methodologies.

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Jami L LoVullo
7/10/2015 09:32:24 am

Not at all true for me or for most "balanced" (I don't care what you call it, the word itself is meaningless) trainers I know. Most bring decades of experience to the table, as I do and don't just learn how to train one way. It simply means for me, I use whatever works for that particular dog. I'm not a follower of any one person or methodology, and I use common sense. That's it.

John Hodkinson
7/10/2015 01:37:58 pm

Jamie, the same could be said of positive trainers or any of the other self imposed titles. I would tend to agree more with Jami, in that I will continue trying different methods until we hit on one that works for a particular dog/handler combination,

Jennifer Pennington link
21/5/2015 12:54:42 pm

John,

Excellent question! It raises a much deeper question for everyone seeking a trainer.

With the socks example, you put those things away. With furniture, and other things, your job is to watch the dog and interrupt his behavior in a positive manner. The idea here is that you do not leave toddlers in a room by themselves and expect them to understand they should not grab breakable things. Nor would you force a toddler on the ground, scream at him, or otherwise intimidate him because he put a hand on a glass vase in order to steady himself. Neither knows why you are upset, they do become upset themselves and maybe even afraid of you. What exactly did they learn in that situation?

Both with a dog and the child you may happily call their name to distract them or simply lead the child or dog away from danger. Then, you would make sure the child is kept in a safe playpen until which time you can prevent further accidents. After that you would teach what you would rather them do instead. No one learns anything from "Stop it!"

Balanced is a term used by the trainers themselves. So, the author did not coin it. Yes, there are trainers that are anywhere on the spectrum. That is what makes this sort of thing so difficult for the public, and other dog trainers for that matter, to sort out!

Someone calling themselves a balanced trainer may use treats to teach a behavior, but use force, intimidation, or even hang a dog by its choke chain until it passes out as a correction. Or they may be a trainer that uses rewards and the most severe punishment might be light jerks on the leash on a flat collar.

So, what do you look for? First, interview the trainer. Ask them what they would do to correct something like a dog who is guarding his food dish, or is aggressive around other dogs. Be persistent and ask, what if that doesn't work, what else would you try. Ask why they think the dog is doing those things? Do they mention anything about a dog's emotional state and motivation?

Find out what sort of certifications or current education they have. Do they have a title such as Master Trainer, Professional, or Certified Trainer? Who gave them that title? Was it a private dog school they went to, the business they work for, or the franchise they are a part of? Did they become certified and tested by an independent organization? Are they required to keep up on Continuing Education? Are these credits gained only from mentors who have simply been training for a longer time than themselves or is this new information gained from recent knowledge, techniques, and studies from others not part of their organization or association? Do they document and follow all of their clients and outcomes (especially behavior cases.) Do they have videos of before and after of dogs with behavioral problems. Are the dogs happily performing behaviors with a relaxed body posture, open relaxed mouth, and gently wagging tail or are they reacting slow, have a hard closed mouth, frozen or stiff posture, showing the whites of their eyes a lot, laying down, acting sleepy, or avoiding the trainer?

Does the trainer blame the clients for lack of being an Alpha leader or dominant and leave it at that or do they have a comprehensive answer including what was tried. Did they consult others. Did the client not follow the plan or practice? What did they do to try and help the client be successful?

What other trainers or books do they suggest you read or follow? Do they consult veterinary behaviorists and can they give you their information immediately when asked? Does the trainer get defensive when you ask these questions? (This is just something I like to do to see if this is a person I would want to work with and does not have any bearing on the Traditional vs Balanced vs Modern Trainer.)

Seeking out a trainer is a stressful thing for many people. It is not taken lightly and is sometimes the "last chance," for the dog. No matter what side of the spectrum the dog trainer is from. I would want someone who truly listens in order to understand what is going on and does not have a cookie cutter approach to all things. Dogs are not simple creatures, nor is every dog, situation, family, or environment the same. As a trainer, I would want to learn as much as I can in order to truly help each individual. Just as a doctor would research as many new things in his field and ask the advice of colleagues, so he may give the best help to each patient. Find someone you can trust.

My very long two cents.

Warm Woofs.

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Ryan Roberson
21/5/2015 09:28:19 pm

Interesting that marine mammal trainers consider themselves "force free". Think about it...a wild animal...raised in captivity...an ocean predator...trapped in a pool and withheld food so he can then"preform" so he can eat...and a choke chain is cruel? Ha. Your argument in favor of science is a weak one...I suggest you tead Steven Lindsays work...pure science mind you. You were never instructed on proper technique by a professional so how can you properly judge the methods of training that use aversives?

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Eric Brad link
22/5/2015 10:20:26 am

Ryan -

You may not be aware than many marine mammal trainers train animals in the open ocean with great success. The primary reason that the trainers do not use more force based methods is quite simple - the dolphins or whales would not return to work with them!

I suggest you look particularly at the work done for the US Military in training dolphins to find mines in the open ocean for a prime example of how the training Jose describes as "Force Free" can produce spectacular results without withholding food or keeping an animal captive.

Aversives have their place in modifying an animal's behaviour, but physical compulsion is useless when your trainees can just swim away. How convenient that our dogs can't just up and leave, eh?

Eric

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Troy
24/5/2015 11:25:31 pm

Ryan, force free refers to the lack of aversive ...punishment... correction. Being in an enclosure is where they live. Force free trainers make multiple and repetitive attempts to feed their "students" with praise, positive energy or input, and ensure that a large portion of their daily feeding is given as treats--or "pay"--for attempting the behavior. Did you ever receive a paycheck? Did your boss ever threaten to cut your hours, or dock your pay ? Did that help you learn to do your job happily? Marine mammal trainers do everything in their power to be kind to their charges. And ensure appropriate food intake...they do not starve the student, they make opportunities to feed them. They are not left without food, but fed on a planned schedule. Aversion training doesn't stick, it requires frequent reapplication. Example, ever get a ticket for speeding? Do you still exceed the posted limits?

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John Hodkinson
25/5/2015 05:51:29 am

I see the semantics are coming into play. We've now moved from "positive" to "force free", as "positive doesn't fit with the argument for depriving an animal of its freedom.

Sharon Jonas
25/5/2015 01:27:38 am

You can't withhold food from a whale or dolphin for training. They will die in a very short time because that is the only way for them to get freshwater

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Sofia link
21/5/2015 11:30:39 pm

I agree with your arguments.

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Dave link
22/5/2015 11:28:07 am

its funny how people act like their willing to share ideas ... It's so not the case. I've done nothing but try to open minds for the longest time and now I'm known as a trouble maker which so not my intention but after getting nothing but resentment and angry for stating a different opinion tying to get conversation started not with anger or criticism but with the hope of helping dogs in need and nothing else. I post something implying I have a ability to do things that are normally thought as not possible because of a unique amount of experience I was lucky to gain over many years. I realize it sounds silly and maybe unlikely but you'd think being that we're in the business of helping dogs someone would at least look into things I say but nope doesn't happen and I mean ever... What's that tell you? You could tell me you figured out a way to eliminate fear in dogs by saying some magic words while juggling their poop and I'd think it's ridiculous but I'd at least investigate and do you know why? Because I love dogs and despite seeming absurd the possibility that magic words and poop juggling could eliminate fear in dogs is worth the ten minutes of my time looking into it . For example I don't need to correct a dog or use bribery to change behavior. When I say change behavior I'm talking about the actually cause of the behavior and permanently changeing it. I can take a dog with severe fear issue and I'm referring to the most extreme levels of fear that exists in dogs and get them to the point where they have such trust in me the fear is almost never seen although still part of them . And I do it using no correction and no bribery. Not one training works for every dog? What I do works for every dog. I'm not magic I simply gained an abnormal amount of experience as a result of very unique circumstances. No matter what happens now I've said this stuff hundreds of times isn't that right Eric? Yep it's impossible the claims I'm making but good lord wouldn't it be awesome if I'm right? Guess what I get out of all this? I get to help dogs which is more than enough for me

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Jeff link
27/5/2015 01:26:16 pm

I like ur uniqueness, this simply says u allow the dog to teach you. That's the only way u can achieve that

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Kayce Cover link
22/5/2015 02:28:51 pm

Hi Jose, I think you did a good job of describing your perspective without unduly insulting other trainers. Calling your choice of training 'modern' is likely to irritate some of the trainers you might otherwise influence. You don't define the term 'correction', which is a landmine in discussions. You also state that balanced trainers "teach behaviors without force and then “perfect it” with corrections when it is assumed that the animal has already learnt the behavior." , which is to say, the behaviors may be taught with force free measures, but proofed with physical correction. You go on to say that 'modern trainers' do not " use force or aversive measures to teach animals." This leaves the proofing of behaviors open to conjecture in 'modern' trainers, although you suggest that there may be the 'removal of pleasant things from the environment." So, you imply punishment here, but do not clearly say the role of removing pleasant things, and neither punishers nor reinforcers are defined by their pleasantness or unpleasantness. Confounding desirability with contingent consequences is a common logic flaw in arguments relating to operant conditioning.

I come from a background similar to yours. We cannot really use enforcers in most cases with exotic animals, but neither do we have to live with them. We have to be on top of our game when we are in the exhibit with them, but then they can safely do whatever they want when we are not in the exhibits.

Conversely, companion animals are with people most of the time. I observe that many dogs make it very difficult to avoid the use of physical consequences to change behavior in order to make it safely through a vet procedure, grooming, or even just walking down the street. The dogs must be managed until training is completed, including proofing. I currently have a working line GSD that I am training solely with SATS and Bridge and Target. This dog constantly seeks to explode out of one activity into a new one, making leash jerks nearly impossible to avoid - not because a person inflicts them, but because the dog is willing to dive into them. I find this repeatedly with many high drive dogs. In short, being force free is exceedingly difficult with certain animals. Any trainer managing such an animal should always have and employ safety back up measure and have the ability to stop the dog mid behavior, regardless of training ideology. In other words, I can only be a force free trainer if the dog agrees to require no force in order to move safely through life.

The GSD I mention above is gaining important skills in self management, but it takes constant diligence on both our parts. It puts my professional skills to the test on a continuing basis. I can think of many dogs, including entire breeds of dogs, where I can imagine force free training would be difficult, if not impossible, to accomplish regardless of intent.

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preston
22/5/2015 08:03:03 pm

Very good points! I wonder if human-puppies (children) never got a slap on the wrist or smack on the bum or even the occasional yell, how well they would learn to manage bad behaviours

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Kayce Cover link
22/5/2015 11:45:32 pm

Interesting observation, Preston. I was reared with physical consequences for undesirable behavior. I am a bit high drive myself. My parents included us in everything, but to do so, our behavior had to be reliable. We lived by the ocean, were often on military bases and ships, went camping, met famous people. I quickly learned to see my self-managed behavior as an entry card into the adult world. I try to make the animals aware, early on, that their behavior buys them what they want most.

In training, I have two classes of behavior: mandatory and optional. Mandatory behaviors impact health and safety of the dog, other beings, and property. I will enforce this behavior if needed. With good training practices, it is rarely needed, but life happens and there are always mishaps, like someone else letting a dog out, or a dog loose on the street, or a medical emergency - various things that require good behavior before the training is completed.

On the other hand, the task behaviors, tricks, information exchange - these are all optional. If the animal does not want to work, he does not have to, and we table the training till another time. Rarely happens, but sometimes does.

However, currently, I am not training dogs whose task performance can put the health and safety of others at risk. I might have to rethink my stance if I were training service or explosive detection animals, for example.

I don't find many absolutes in life, and want to stay mentally poised to adapt to the immediate situation. To paraphrase Chad Mackin, you cannot have two priorities. Either your priority is to follow an ideology, or your priority is to train dogs. Mine is to train dogs (and people!).

Eric Letendre link
24/5/2015 12:11:13 pm

As someone who is very active on YouTube I'll tell you why balanced trainers don't allow comments....Because the PO'd (positive only) and force free crowd go out of their minds and threaten, bully and attack anyone that does not conform to their beliefs.

The ones that call themselves peaceful and positive trainers become the most vicious and angry group using the most negative comments they can think of. I specifically ask Pet Professional Guild members and APDT members to NOT watch my videos.

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Cathy Hughes
2/6/2015 11:00:09 am

Geez Eric. Based on the fact that I am a member of both APDT and PPG, you have assumed that I am a judgemental zealot that should not be given access to what you have to offer in your videos. I spend many hours of every day researching methodology used by trainers. That is my job, my responsibility to familiarize myself with all approaches to training. I do not insult or slam others for the way they train...It just isn't productive to do so. But I will say that there have been many times when I have posted advise that is based on +R and -P and was royally insulted and berated by "traditional" (I hate that term btw) trainers. I have ceased to post publicly for the most part due to this bickering I see going on from all camps. This posting is following a year hiatus from my last post. I chanced it to let you know the petty crap originates from all sides. I am going to watch some YouTube videos now. Cheers

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John Hodkinson
24/5/2015 01:16:07 pm

Having been kicked of several "positive training" Facebook groups, for daring to suggest that what they class as "management" could be viewed as punishment and that if you can be abusive to one species (humans) as they find it so easy to be I find it difficult to believe that their abusiveness does not spill over into other species, I can fully appreciate Eric's point of view. I recall seeing a video, on one of these groups, of a child playing quite roughly with his dog. At one point the boy runs behind the dog and taps it on the rump. According to many group members this child and his parents should have been severely beaten (killed in a couple of instances) for permitting such abuse to a dog. Do they really not see the stupidity in their stance?

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Jami LoVullo
25/5/2015 12:15:34 am

I have been an animal trainer for over 38 years as a professional. I have seen the pendulum swing from one extreme to the other when it comes to "modern" dog training. I certainly would not advocate the "old school" method of mostly aversion training, choke chains or shock collars. However, I see a lot of new trainers feeling pretty high and mighty about their "modern" approach even when they have little to no actual experience handling or training dogs. Being able to use a clicker and give a cookie does not make one able or competent to handle dogs with serious aggression, reactivity or other behavioral issues. I use mild aversives such as water bottles, etc. My biggest argument? Dogs (and all other animals) correct Each Other. Sometimes very harshly. It is simply Not true that you will "ruin your relationship with your dog" if you say "ah-ah" or use a squirt bottle. Ridiculous thinking, IMHO. I have several degrees in animal training/behavior and so, am not "self-taught", so I believe that is a generalization that is untrue. Being certified by CCPDT alone does not make one a competent trainer. Hoping the pendulum swings back more towards the common sense approach, "balanced" training does not mean one is working with fear, pain or intimidation, despite claims to the contrary.

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Kirsty Macfarlane
25/5/2015 05:45:33 am

Well said Jamie. I'm a great believer in self education and to compare a dog trainer to going to the doctor is just ridiculous. I have 2 gsds and I'm working with a positive trainer and they're doing great but 8 weeks later I still can't take them out together but I will get there. I find a lot of negativity within the positive training forums very argumentative and hostile. I got terrible abuse for mentioning Cesar Milan and the admiration I have for people educating themselves. I'm currently doing a canine behavioural course and I'm taking a huge leap of faith at 41 to take on a new career. I want to be a positive trainer but on one hand they make it sound so easy to teach a client and on the other you need to be a rocket scientist to do it!

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linda rugaas
25/5/2015 08:02:42 pm

I am a certified teacher, and I know that children does not learn better if they are punished for failing. In the 70'ties there came a law against beating children, and the outcries of protests were massive: how could we get kids to respect us without physical punishment, how could we teach them anything without the proper dicipline? And so on. Strangely enough the next generation, and the one after turned out quite ok as it seems. Of course you can still make a child more obedient by beating, abusing or molesting it, but it is not neccessarily the best method, concidering the wellbeeing of the child.
There are many training methods that are successful without inflicting pain or fear. Personally, I do not use treats while training, I do not use clickers, and rarely shaping, but I do praise the dog, and ignore most unwanted behaviors, even throwing in a "no!" in emergencies. I do not yank or tug at the leash, never slap,hit,spank,pinch,shove, yell, or trying to be bossy in any way. All the dogs I encounter still respects me, and will try to accommodate my wishes when they understand what I want. The same goes for horses. Even most kids. I have never called myself a modern trainer, but I concider myself fairly well-read and enlightened.
The danger of beeing self taught is when you are satisfied with that and do not strive to gather more information. You cannot teach yourself the nervous system of the throat, wich affects collared dogs. You cannot teach yourself the action of the neurotransmitters between amygdala in the limbic system to the frontal neocortex, or the cortisol levels in a stressed dog. When you are self taught and still curious, you may be an exellent teacher/trainer, but if you are content and do not see the need for any improvement, you will never be. I would still choose an educated trainer to help me rather than an autodidact, but I would use my knowledge and experience to find a trainer with an education and a mindset I can accept.

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John Hodkinson
26/5/2015 12:17:13 am

Linda, I would assume that, as a qualified teacher, you are aware that dogs are not children, anymore than children are dogs

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John Hodkinson
26/5/2015 12:22:53 am

I feed my dogs from a bowl, placed on the floor, I walk my dogs on a lead, My dogs sleep on the floor. If I were to do any of these things with my child I would fully expect to take the consequences of my actions. On the other hand, when my dog defecates I clean up after it, i expect my child to use the toilet and to clean up after herself. We could go on all day differentiating between dogs and children and our expectations of them, but hopefully the foregoing will serve to show that we are expected to treat them differently and we expect different things from them.

Linda
28/5/2015 01:43:32 am

Of course they are different. But the mechanism of learning is the same. I expect more from children than from dogs, as their brains are bigger and more developed. But still I see no need of using aversive training methods as a rule.

Jami
26/5/2015 12:52:05 am

And this is why the debate goes nowhere...right away the "I don't think it's necessary to use fear, intimidation and pain" thing gets trotted out. Whoever said anything about that? And the assumption that if you aren't "positive only" you are abusing and molesting? Ugh. That's why mostly these discussions are a waste of time.

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Eve
27/5/2015 10:58:41 am

Hi, I have brought up several dogs in my lifetime. I have never been to formal training and have never used punishment . I have simply allowed my dogs to be who they are and been more interested in their character development than obedience. I have always usedt treats as a reward for tricks and required behaviours. I have been amazed that I have then had dogs who were well socialised, obediant and loving towards all beings. None of them attacked or chased cats and they all were able to be managed off lead . Love was the basis I used to train them. And of corse removing undesirable objects that may be destroyed when they were young . I have a new pup, she is a challenge today the least but I am working on developing her trust and letting her know she is safe and loved rather than using any negative responses. I am watching her develop a beautiful personality who lves people and she is cheeky, devious and playful. We lie her for this . My father used to belt our dogs , sometimes I am haunted by their screams , I guess this under pins my attitude and desire to never break their trust with punishment or pain. Like any of us some restraint jay be required but it can be gentle with reassurance and I am noticing she settles quickly almost grateful. I hope to train her to do therapy with me as I work with mental illness. I am sure she will work magic

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John Hodkinson
28/5/2015 04:46:26 pm

Quote "I have simply allowed my dog to be who they are" Point 1, they are not a who but a what. Point 2, so you never place your dog on a leash? Doing so would restrict their natural desire to roam freely, regardless of traffic or other dangers.

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Linda
31/5/2015 01:36:38 am

Drar John.
You have very strong opinions, but may I ask what kind of training you actually use or approve of? I got the picture about a lot you disapprove, but do you have alternatives you wish to share? I have redd hundrede of books, and talked wish many educated and succesfull trailere, researchers and scientists in this field, but your training methods sees unfamiliar to med.
And Jamie: The article was about non-aversive methods, so I thought that the protest was against that. If you use aversive training without intimidation or punishment, please enligthen me; I redd the article as If that

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Linda
31/5/2015 01:43:34 am

Sorry, autosentrum
.. redd the article as If that was the point. Not what you do as much aswhat you call it

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John Hodkinson
2/6/2015 01:11:22 am

I would class myself as a balanced trainer, as I do not believe there is truly positive only training. If you train a dog to refrain from carrying out an activity it wants to do or if you restrain it from carrying out that activity them you are, in effect punishing the animal

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Linda
2/6/2015 03:05:35 pm

Ok. As I said, I do not call myself a modern trainer, but I concider myself force-free, as I do not activly force an animsl or a child to do anything. To restrain is what I would concider a passive action, I do restrain a dog that is attempting to attack or eat poison fex.As I will restrain a child from walking into the road or stabbing a sibling with a kitchen knife. But I will teach both a better behavior, and during the learning process I do not use force as a didactic tool, I choose to teach them/train them redirect their actions, to walk with me along the road, to accept meeting other dogs in a calmer manner, and to solve sibling fights with words. And I am not talking about rough play with a lot of noice, wich is normal for kids and dogs alike.

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Marilyn Marks
11/6/2015 07:56:35 am

I am very interested in this topic. I have been a pet dog trainer for 27 yrs, initially it was lure, reward, correct methods, now mostly clicker plus some hands on the dog stuff (teaching owners how to send messages of strength - no pain -- that I find helps joe public with handling). I created a diagram of my own, but I put force free at the far left and traditional at the far right, with both ends, in my mind, representing closed mind Andes and belief-based decisions about training. Balanced, in the middle, is open to the science and to reading the behavioral outcome based on body language and relationship. I have not used aversive methods in over 15 years, but that is not because I don't believe in them, it's because I am not educated in using them without fallout, although I do think it can be done. I absolutely do not put myself in the same camp as the self-named balanced trainers from years back! I simply cannot, despite being extremely left-wing in every other way, dismiss science in supposed favor of kindness. I hope that makes some sense. I see force free as a cultist view. The methods, however, I love. FWIW, I am a Charter but now lapsed APDT member, a developer of the original CPDT exam and formerly certified. I have dropped both due to politics and no return on investment. I am sitting back, watching this name calling, and trying to find a professional way forward as the pendulum swings. I said 10 yrs ago that the "all positive" pendulum swing was going to hit us on our asses on the way back as its own fallout creates a void that needs filling!

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Jose Gomes link
5/7/2015 02:14:03 pm

Thank you so much for all the valuable comments. Believe it or not I learned a lot by reading them.

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Jami Lovullo
7/10/2015 09:33:53 am

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    Jose Gomes is a certified dog behaviour consultant by the ABC of SA and currently applying the most updated humane techniques to the training of dogs and other pets

    Disclaimer: All opinions expressed are my own and do not represent the opinions of any other academic and professional organisations

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